Board index Games... Mods... Multiplayer! Deus Ex ]

SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup


Poll: "ANNA or MiniMTL + stuff" Poll ended at 24 Oct 2015, 11:55
ANNA
6
30%
MiniMTL
1
5%
20 players
5
25%
16 players
2
10%
12 players
0
No votes
10 players
0
No votes
8 players
0
No votes
default tick
3
15%
60 tick
3
15%
a different rate
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 20

Author
Message
synthetic
Seraphic/8X
Seraphic/8X

Posts: 1321
Joined:
 27 Apr 2007, 15:29


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby synthetic » 09 Oct 2015, 09:10


hitboxes in dxmp are massive, for certain experienced players it is practically impossible to miss an enemy in some fights. Also, doesnt a 2x rise in tickrate (say 20 to 40) also double hit registration?


Poor
Power/3D
Power/3D

Posts: 288
Joined:
 02 Jan 2011, 22:39
Nationality:
United States of America


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby Poor » 09 Oct 2015, 09:34


No. It shouldn't affect fire rate or make one bullet register as two. It should just make your shots on the server match more closely to what you see on your screen. If something weird is happening then maybe the guns weren't properly programmed to work with different tickrates.


synthetic
Seraphic/8X
Seraphic/8X

Posts: 1321
Joined:
 27 Apr 2007, 15:29


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby synthetic » 09 Oct 2015, 10:38


If you shoot one bullet its one bullet, unless its not one bullet. What I asked was whether it shouldn't double the hit rate detection because it doubles the checks for hits.

edit: also damage does get screwed up eventually due to overdriven detection and IIRC mostly affects area damage weapons and fast rate weapons. UT community complied charts with its impact for some problematic weapons. In that case there isn't necessarily anything broken, except game begins to behave in a way that it wasn''t designed/balanced for. Or in other words, nothing is broken besides the game itself.
edit2: for clarification, in dxmp some weapons began to behave in odd ways at and around 100 tickrate but it is all very much debatable and speculative due to lack of testing. Suffice to say, nobody in dxmp should ever feel the need for that high tick rates, whereas most of us are quite used to 60 already, even if it will behave in slightly different ways.


[FGS]Chees
Cherub/7H
Cherub/7H
User avatar

Posts: 1192
Joined:
 13 Nov 2011, 15:37
Location:
 UK
Nationality:
Great Britain


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby [FGS]Chees » 09 Oct 2015, 21:25


Thanks for explaining tick rates everyone :-D


Image
Cozmo
Power/3D
Power/3D

Posts: 276
Joined:
 08 Apr 2010, 22:00


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby Cozmo » 10 Oct 2015, 10:45


Yep, even our netcode is frame-dependent http://www.utzone.de/forum/showthread.php?t=304

I voted default, but tbh I've no idea what servers have had it set to for years, so I don't mind


CDX - A huge Deus Ex Multiplayer patch
Cozmo_RPG (v1 & v2)
MPConversations - A great tool for creating co-op or rpg content. It will never be used.
anax
Throne/6G
Throne/6G

Posts: 942
Joined:
 11 Apr 2012, 23:06
Location:
 England
Nationality:
Great Britain


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby anax » 10 Oct 2015, 11:31


Cozmo wrote:Yep, even our netcode is frame-dependent http://www.utzone.de/forum/showthread.php?t=304

I voted default, but tbh I've no idea what servers have had it set to for years, so I don't mind


Thanks Cozmo, after reading that I think there's good reason to have 40 tick, or at the least, NOT higher than 60.. Maybe even halving the max client netspeed, but obvs since DX isn't 100% like UT perhaps not. Everyone has pretty powerful computers now so most of us should handle 60 tick 20000 NS without problems. it's worth trying out on a test server though.
As far as this one match goes, I'll just stick with the highest voted settings.


AKA Knifeworld on Discord etc. Frozen brains tell no tales!
synthetic
Seraphic/8X
Seraphic/8X

Posts: 1321
Joined:
 27 Apr 2007, 15:29


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby synthetic » 10 Oct 2015, 13:56


60 on old patches and 40 on new mini should be the familiar average, most will be using 10k to 20k netspeed anyway, and the ones that dont wont be able to find the server anyway.

Reading that page again was a bit funny because it brings out one balancing issue: having better hit detection is not a problem, in fact its the opposite of problem: its excellent. What creates the problem is that the engine games were built so long time ago and are actually optimized for.. well.. bad performance :D So if communication between your trigger finger and the server suddenly gets good, it is bad because everything else in the game was built with the assumption that you cannot hit anything most of the time! Weapon balancing aside the most obvious example is the massive hit boxes or cilinders.


Alessi
Power/3D
Power/3D

Posts: 294
Joined:
 25 Nov 2011, 23:46
Location:
 I'm in Malta BITCH
Nationality:
Malta


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby Alessi » 13 Oct 2015, 18:40


[FGS]Chees wrote:Thanks for explaining tick rates everyone :-D

Seconded. =D>


Image
synthetic
Seraphic/8X
Seraphic/8X

Posts: 1321
Joined:
 27 Apr 2007, 15:29


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby synthetic » 14 Oct 2015, 00:41


Cozmo wrote:Yep, even our netcode is frame-dependent http://www.utzone.de/forum/showthread.php?t=304

I voted default, but tbh I've no idea what servers have had it set to for years, so I don't mind


What doesn't give me peace every time I see that explanation, is the difficulty of just tying server refresh to client refresh. As I am not a coder and have barely looked into scripting, I can only approach the idea using logics. If server is checking information from client all the time anyway, depending on its rate, why is speedhacking even possible? Yeah I know there are some issues with weapon code, but if we look at server updates alone.. hm I guess it''d have to know *what* happened (ie what weapon shot) in order to have an effect, also preferably how *long* it is happening. So it'd have to receive action type information or identify it alongside timing it.. I guess there is no way of doing it server side? I don't really know what information client is sending server every packet. Same goes for multitooling and multitool itself, not just weapons. Or "hacking". I guess even turrets count as weapons.

My best guess is that bulk of the issue really is that client is not sending much else other than "i did something, make it count", ie "i shot at these coords, detect hit, doesnt matter what i shot with or what the time of it should be". If our client is really coded to send no information at all to the server, I guess there is nothing to do on the server side either.

But then I don't understand the major issue with weapon patching.. could just add "im assault rifle, server detect me" and have server nod back "youre an assault rifle, you should pass for a hit every X ticks"


Poor
Power/3D
Power/3D

Posts: 288
Joined:
 02 Jan 2011, 22:39
Nationality:
United States of America


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby Poor » 14 Oct 2015, 03:11


Didn't Dejavu do that in the latest miniMTL? The weapons checked the rate of fire server-side to prevent cheating.


anax
Throne/6G
Throne/6G

Posts: 942
Joined:
 11 Apr 2012, 23:06
Location:
 England
Nationality:
Great Britain


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby anax » 14 Oct 2015, 05:08


Poor wrote:Didn't Dejavu do that in the latest miniMTL? The weapons checked the rate of fire server-side to prevent cheating.


I think that was tested but may not have panned out as intended/to its full effect.


AKA Knifeworld on Discord etc. Frozen brains tell no tales!
synthetic
Seraphic/8X
Seraphic/8X

Posts: 1321
Joined:
 27 Apr 2007, 15:29


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby synthetic » 14 Oct 2015, 09:43


First patch from years ago maybe tried something like that, but without looking at source it's just a random guess. More recent work was mostly with timedilation which is a bit messy mechanism to target. I heard some quite conflicting information about that from our most experienced coders. There seemed some consensus, though, that weapon code required lot of work, but that leads back to my questions in the previous post. Is it that hard to have server identify and handle client actions. IF server is already capable of doing that, client weapon code could be overriden regardless of what it is? If server has no idea whats happening, then its different story of course.


Cozmo
Power/3D
Power/3D

Posts: 276
Joined:
 08 Apr 2010, 22:00


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby Cozmo » 14 Oct 2015, 16:00


Yeah, iirc Deja's MTL did this before his final version (the TimeDilation one), and it worked well for FPS-powered crouch spraying, though it didn't prevent other advantages like instant weapon switching (which imo is much more useful - think instant med or sniper followed instantly by assault). It also occasionally caused a problem where sometimes you'd fire on the client, but not on the server (server thinking you're not ready to fire because of changes in ping I'm guessing?) and you couldn't take another shot until the client was ready again (especially frustrating when it happened with pistol).

The TimeDilation approach was cool but didn't work because it also speeds up the client if it's running too slowly. So anyone who drops to low FPS during a fight will actually gain temporary speedhax \:D/ . It also can't stop the utter 'nobs who bind speedhax.

Deja's first approach would work perfectly if the other advantages were also timed, and instead of the server not firing at all, it would fire as soon as possible instead.

Logically, it should be very easy to do, but the netcode is a pain to work with (or maybe that's just me, idk. I made a mutator before to detect changes in client speed, and it worked differently whether it was FPS accel or speedhax o_O)


CDX - A huge Deus Ex Multiplayer patch
Cozmo_RPG (v1 & v2)
MPConversations - A great tool for creating co-op or rpg content. It will never be used.
~][FGS][Nobody~
Illuminated
Illuminated
User avatar

Posts: 5359
Joined:
 26 Oct 2005, 16:59
Location:
 Schland!
Nationality:
Germany


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby ~][FGS][Nobody~ » 14 Oct 2015, 17:44


The crux of all the speedfire problems is, that there exists a function in the DeusExWeapon base class, that allows the client to tell the server to shoot a bullet ALMOST CONDITIONLESS.

The client uses that function for firing looped-weapons (e.g. assault rifle, shotgun, etc.) and the delay of calling that function is defined by the client.
In order to fix that, you needed to recompile DeusEx.u or replace all weapons with fixed copies.


Nobody is perfect...
-----------------------
ô¿ô¥[GODZ]¥NOCHANC wrote:I can ban any one I want ANY time I want. You have no rights here.

Magus wrote:Maybe one day I will understand your arcane rituals of voting :)

chin.democ. wrote:You can use light bulbs that emit light, and when shot, do not.

synthetic wrote:and while every person is interesting in their own unique ways, there is some degree of uniqueness that a doctor can help with.

~ô¿ô~][FGS][Nobody~ said: THERE IS NO SPOON!
~¤¥ÐJ¥¤~ said: THERE IS NO CAKE!
Poor
Power/3D
Power/3D

Posts: 288
Joined:
 02 Jan 2011, 22:39
Nationality:
United States of America


Re: SHOWDOWN - 2015 match server setup - Postby Poor » 14 Oct 2015, 20:35


The TimeDilation thing aside, Dejavu did add code that would ignore a fire command if it was called too soon. I remember talking to Blade and he said that it stopped speed hacking for all dx weapons except the assault rifle. I looked into it found the issue (a separate fire function for looped weapons) and passed it along to Dejavu. Not sure when he implemented the fix but I see the code for it in v232.




Return to Deus Ex

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests