The [FGS] Clan

interesting point actually, i am not aware of 100% of what we might call the pre-history of DXMP.
Anyhow, i regard the Smuggler map as it has been as the best small aug map.

it may not seem like the case, but i do respect other opinions, just don't expect me to sit in silence when people relieve themselves all over things they don't understand.

Yeah that's the perfect idea, make new maps, one small problem for DXMP, most peoples reaction to maps they haven't seen is to say "this map is metabolic end product" before they even spawn
Now for maps like mine, in particular, my first ones. Fair point... no idea what an aug map was at the time.
But i've seen it happen for various good ATDM maps, Sike's DXMP_Majestic for example.

And with most current players being used to Cage match, Mods, and 0-augs, good luck for them having any amount of patience to be able to familiarize themselves with a new aug map, let alone learning to use augs.

Don't argue with SR, he is pretty good mapper but has practically zero understanding of how DXMP is played or works. Its not even meant as insult, it is just how it is. Problem is that he thinks he knows so he makes all kinds of strong statements about its maps and whatnot that simply make no sense to someone who has actively played the game. If he got off his highhorse there and trained some classic form of DXMP for some months with his friends, he'd understand how DXMP maps are made.
I guess it is a nice way of saying that he is a noob.

Logics would dictate that when there is any random sum of even select players (say group of friends in private server), there would be a progression curve in their skill and thus in understanding and knowledge of the game. With this idea, I'd imagine if you put 10 noobs in a server without experienced player, those random players will still gain experience and establish their own competitive hierarchy (albeit slower than when there are experienced players in server). I don't think it is possible that 10 noobs in one private server will never learn game.. it just doesn't seem possible at all.
So technically it doesnt matter *where* anyone plays, just as long as he plays the game he his talking abouts. With shadowrunner example, he has visited the game but never really played it. From his posts you wouldn't really be able to tell, though.

What DXMP needs done? I believe Poor asked that, and I also saw Cozmo pop in somewhere; and perhaps others are wondering.

This is what we are talking about. Not this or this. Please read through or take a serious glance at the first link to understand what the topic is about even.

Somewhere around 15 years ago I believe it was Spector (look through original pre-release articles) that mentioned how he'd really like Anna (Navarre) added to DXMP, as one of many smaller things he'd like to see in the developed MP patch still. Somewhere around 12 years ago work was in progress (CBP) to allow players to choose from a large variety of skins (existing game skins). Devs rushed patch out and didn't get to add much else, and CBP turned into MTL that likely due to lacking resources only managed to focus on critical (cheating, online performance) issues and didn't provide option to pick your skins.

Why do I mention it? Because it shows our options, and more importantly hints to the visionof what the game could be, or should've been.


1. First very basic thing is to make sure you understand what you intend to work on, hence the links up there. It is not a joke, as I see often people saying things that have nothing to do with DXMP, and yet they are adamant that it does.
If you don't know your game, you will not be able to do much useful.

2. Secondly, the game is in a state where I strongly advise against working alone on any significant part of the online game. Review who are currently there to back you, get to know them, and assess your chances of gathering additional backing in the shape of useful individuals.
Most drastic example is someone porting entire game alone to another engine. I don't even know what to say about that, really. I can see how it can be fun and learning experience for the one in charge, but other than that.. yeah.

3. Thirdly, focus on urgent issues that are flawed within the conceptual borders of what devs provided you with. Any actual modifications that impact game*play* and not performance should be strictly secondary or tertiary. Additionally, focus on actual progress and don't get stuck in planning stages. Plan and progress same time as you'll encounter crapload of issues and bugs anyway.


Now, as to what we actually need?

The immediately obvious issue that any cooperative element should first decide upon is something that some three or four coders have already noticed: the engine.

Porting a game is a task that is likely bigger than this community itself. It is by no means a task that should be taken light heartedly, and Alex was one of the first to actually scout what work has been *already done* for us. All Alex, DejaVu and Cozmo have different opinions about engine port. Some other coders (dae et al) and players (vets) don't even take any efforts seriously if they hear that its about to take place on this engine. DXMP is built on engine that is from mid 90s or so. Not 00's. 90s.

If we don't port the game, we need to explain ourselves and others why that is. Is it because we cant (fair enough), or how do we justify significant effort on 90s game engine? Through retro and nostalgia and whatnot? Maybe.


From thereon any work done would have to be towards two important goals: game peformance(1), and game vision (2). Life is easier when existing ideas and resources are even partially used, or the ideas behind it.


Personally, what do I think? Well, I attempted to assemble a core team last year for such ideas. From that experience I can say that odds aren't good. Obviously my post here is supposed to serve as some kind of motivational material, but when I see so many people that have not even one leg in game any more, or who simply don't even understand what game they are supposed to work on (or understand and exactly because of that are not interested, ie chindemoc and shadowrunner, by the looks of it).. it is not encouraging. You need to understand that there is difference between modding FOR a game, and modding a new game. DXMP has practically no players left, if you mod new game OUT of DXMP resources, you are going to mod for yourself. Some aren't bothered by it and its all good fun I guess, but for the rest of us that means potential help that is not available. 0augs, zombie mods, rpg cities, hengsas and facetowns and all that.. those are Deus Ex mods for online play and use DXMP resources. They have little to nothing to do with DXMP itself and most all of their maps are not compatible for quality DXMP gameplay.

On the same topic but from a different angle I can say two things about DXMP and its mods: the vision and potential of DXMP as it was supposed to be (and delivered maybe 1%, although developers gave us plenty warning that it wasnt going to be very serious release) is highly motivational for me personally. Motivational enough for me to see potential, player interest, and relevance in current times.
The second thing I have had to argue a lot about (unnecessarily so) is a point about mods, with the example of one specific mod. Namely, while I have every chance to list all the amazing things DXMP could deliver as far as online experience goes, I have zero points in 0aug defence. Nil. For some that seems non-issue, for others thats the only game they know, unfortunately. So it is equally vital to distinguish what is actual DXMP, and what is a total conversion mod through.. minimal means, as we see. Developers provided us with means to gut some of their features out, and coders provided the rest. Result is gutted game that is no longer DXMP but some other game. WITHIN Deus Ex and DXMP context, I have no explanation for this new game nor can I defend or see any future for it given available resources, for many different reasons that I've occasionally listed in my various posts.

If you read through this post and still don't know what to do, then ask yourself if you have the social skills to discuss it with another potentially interested modder. As I said, significant parts of the game require extensive effort or big decisions that should not be attempted alone, if one wants to see any success at all. If you'd much rather work alone, then I guess you can mod that player mute mutator and practice your skills, and just see if anything is happening. Chances are, nothing will be happening, but there is what you can do. Even outside bigger goals there are many more or less minor aspects of existing game that should get fixed, but lack of players may or may not be motivational. My previous post lists some of those issues in current every-day games (game speed vs brute patch and demorecs which it broke, easily bypassed bans, lacking gametypes etc)

Wanted to make a separate addition to a different branch of the earlier thought lane there. Namely the unique-ness of DXMP.

For one, the idea of working on a such a unique gameplay that DXMP offers might appear intimidating or at least a high risk (failure) scenario. To that I'd like to draw focus on similar games. I haven't played every shooter out there, and even I have managed to get one foot into some games that provide a reward for frag or assist. Even CSS or CS series are similar by providing advantage to fragging players in the shape of monetary points. This allows more powerful weaponry, protection to be purchased; and if you die, you obviously gain a disadvantage. Similar element, but this time pure experience (skillpoints) rewards can be seen in Enemy Territory.

Many such games also provide classes on top of these mechanics, providing player with an advantage in some regards, disadvantage in others. The deathmatch setting copies 99% of all shooters aswell.

Naturally, DXMP differs in some other small ways, maybe in its robust and aggressive gameplay in particular - I don't recall a single player who has always kept his cool in challenging matches, the risks are just so high. But what sets DXMP aside is for me its fresh and increasingly relevant overall concept and vision. That perhaps doesn't always shine through the current gameplay, and if I had to pick one practical element where DXMP truly is unique compared to all those other games with similar elements, then it has to be its bad maps. The maps of this game are so bad that they create an incredibley frantic and even bizarre experience. But, they work. They work because the basics are covered.

Porting DXMP to another engine would be illegal without the permission from whoever owns the game's assets currently. I doubt one could get that permission. Similar things have been shutdown by cease-and-desist orders and legal threats. What the old engine lacks is mainly graphics and physics, which aren't important for DXMP anyway.

"True" DXMP sucks honestly. It would even if no one cheated and all the bugs were fixed. You can learn how to enjoy it, but it requires significant effort and maybe some friends. This is why mods became more popular. Unlike mods, the original DXMP gameplay has no chance of a comeback. It needs to be reinvented, not patched. DXMPv2. Something like: more passive augs, more balance, less dependence on binds, and no more raping the augs button when bio energy hits zero.

But, like most other modders, I'm fine with just getting more players online. I don't mind if it's 0A, Cagematch, and other mod servers. So I won't follow your guidelines. I doubt you will find an experienced programmer who will. Like you said, the odds are low.

That's an interesting point.

To be honest i'm still fulyl convinced players gravitated to mods simply because they're too lazy to learn Augs.
But i can still understand how your perspective can be equally true also, Development flaws, bugs, and all that jazz...

i think both cases are 50/50 the cause of DXMP's death.

I too just want more people to play, that's the most important thing for DX right now, IMO.

Someone totally new played yesterday evening, coming from "Baretenders" steam group i think he said, i showed him how to set up augs before spawning lmao, i always though players like myself and Dani would be the last ever players.
I don't even care if this guy will be the final ever beginner to join us, to get a single new player to join a game in such a state as DXMP is.. well.. i think it's amazing.

Without mods DX would've been dead a long long long time before the masterserver died down. I took time to learn augs, it was alright. You just need to accept people like different games and gamemodes.

I don't agree with either of you regarding the mods, but that doesn't really change the issue at hand.

In terms of player numbers (1), skill (2), sportsmanship (3), competition (4), all of which are important parts of online gameplay in any game, the original DXMP has all mods beat if you research DXMP past a little bit. The only mod that as far as these elements go attempted to briefly challenge the original game was 0augs, which practically did die about a year after the original game (2004, 2003 respectively).

I think people over emphasise the importance of mods in DXMP due to personal reasons and it clouds the judgement. I have pretty good memory about how many played funline, bowen's, altfire, sg, AG, and 0augs, as well as pretty fair understanding of who they were and what else they played.

I just don't see much basis for the claim that mods kept the game alive when the game died before mods were even made. I am willing to admit that the mods benefitted pre-teen players and children, though, but for anyone 14+ when bigger mods started coming out the game was dead. Who didn't quit in 2003 started quitting in 2004, 2005 saw few of them returning to game and 2006 original DXMP vets started making occasional comebacks. Through 2008 2009 2010 original game would start getting upper hand over the 0a mod once again, whereas other mods either have died (not hosted or played) or have the same tiny playerbase of few regular recurrent names.

Nicky should remember pretty well how DXMP looked when aug clans had died and DCSB, TT, V/DXR, A followed in a mere year.

Also, since Poor says he thinks DXMP sucks, it just comes to illustrate just how few people we do have left to back the game. I disagree, but these are just two different opinions - a preference cant be forced. Plenty games I dont like, either. Its pretty much safe to say that all dxmp mods suck as well.. at least none of them are really finished or provide an enjoyable experience. So if original game sucks and its mods suck, what do we have left?

edit:

I'd really rather not derail the topic with too much emphasis on mods, making a mention of them was relevant but the discussion about the strengths or shortcomings is a separate topic. I've played pretty much all of your mods bar rpg city, so I could say a thing or two about them. In addition to having the habit of checking what names are playing in what server (thanks mtl) I also have heard quite a bit about rpg city activity from the few odd people who used to play it from my clan. But, thats all besides the point. The topic and discussion is tailored to those that are interested in DXMP or want to do something for it, and not really for those that think it sucks.

Mastakilla wrote:Without mods DX would've been dead a long long long time before the masterserver died down. I took time to learn augs, it was alright. You just need to accept people like different games and gamemodes.

Seems like you're assuming that specific disagreements about mods must mean i'm fully against them, i'm actually not, i enjoy Altfire when enough players are online.
Cagematch i used to enjoy but i don't see many playing that in recent times. Heck, those warp/vacuum grenades or whatever they were on the Bowen Server were significant in my early enjoyment of DX

idk where i said people should only play Deus Ex and i don't accept them playing other games, like games i myself enjoy, like Red Faction, CS:CZ etc. etc. but whatever man

Edit: if poor thinks DXMP sucks that's a shame because with his knowledge of coding, assuming based on Kens posts, he could have helped make it better.
That's one thing you tried to ask him about, right?
Sorry right now i really don't feel like wading knee-deep through past posts and forums to find out XD!

Edit 2: Yep, i'm glad i got internet and started DX competitively in late 2010, so i guess i saw the last wave of Aug popularity...

Funnily enough, if one attempts to seriously improve DXMP, he'd get sh#t from *both* atdm and mod communities..

Some immediately obvious elements to tackle in addition to what I listed in that better-structured post: skins/models for team or even solo game.
They don't really impact actual gameplay much, but for player they make or break the immersion (we could also code all players into different hue metalcrates that slide around with guns and streak up..)

I believe *even* UrT has some kind of rudimentary team concept in place, borrowing from the typical terrorists vs swat idea. Most all such games also have female mesh, which Spector also wanted in DXMP but I guess adding the anims and fitting it into the gametypes took longer than they wanted to spend on it.
Granting player wider array of skins to choose helps, like planned already in 2000/2001 for CBP/MTL, but doesn't fix this issue (bit random). Properly done MP has logical and immersive team skins/meshes.

Gametypes also have lot of options that could borrow from existing ones and just redesign them for DX concept. Me and Alex brainstormed a lot of them last year. More interesting ones are obviously also harder to actually get from paper to the game.


So thats two more points about DXMP work. Current game actually is made harder by the fact that its, well, dead. Same issue plagues all of its mods as well. Something like 0augs or altfire simply gives you the impression that you might get lucky with your kill without using your head. It is true that in DXMP you'll have to use your head, and lot of people today don't feel like doing it or lack head to begin with. I could go 100-0 vs some beginner in 0aug or even altfire, but they would constantly have that feeling that they might get lucky. DXMP itself destroys that luck feeling pretty fast and to kill a streaker you need to start setting up pretty hardcore traps and strats.
Overall the only problem with it as far as learning goes is the lack of players and servers and thats really all there is to it. Those that seek challenge normally tend to cluster into experienced servers, and those that are new naturally tend to cluster to beginner servers until they feel braver. In a normal game this is what happens, in a dead game you are lucky to have any server or any players. The issues we discuss just deal with its future as well as how the game works when you do have enough players.

that's pretty much the defining point of our problem, all the other problems would slowly improve if we had players because there would be people there to work on coding, moding, eradicating bugs, making the engine smooth, anti-cheats, and so on and on...

anax wrote:that's pretty much the defining point of our problem, all the other problems would slowly improve if we had players because there would be people there to work on coding, moding, eradicating bugs, making the engine smooth, anti-cheats, and so on and on...

Exactly, well glad someone sees the simple logics of it as well. I suppose for real success we would've needed such team within 2001 and fast. By the looks of it even MTL team after merge with CBP was quite small still.

While I personally am quite disheartened by the thought of cooperating with people who don't give a damn about the original game, it is still true that even mod community can combine forces to work on issues that benefit the overall game (sort of like how Alex approached it as well, or even DejaVu in the end). Gamespeed issue and ban evades for example affect all mods and mod servers. Phantom used to speedhack like crazy in Deja's animals server lol.

For historical reference:

in early 2001 there were reports of game dying.
as an interesting fact, one of the players who'd become legendary with current speed tank style (Amigo) admitted that he was about to quit a game as poorly performing as DXMP, if friends didnt change his mind.

Throughout 2002 there seem to be only just about as many clans as 2 years ago that would actually have an impact on the competitive scene. MTL was also rushing to release and didn't get to finish all that it aimed for.
as an interesting fact: From 2000 winter onwards to late 2002 it was possible to easily change your weapon damage to whatever you wanted it to be.

by 2003 and through it stronger players and clans were all quitting game.
Triads had interesting discussion going about the game activity issues this year, on their old forums.

by 2004 game was completely dead for anyone above the age 12.

Through 2005 0augers made very good comeback, augers made smaller sporadic comebacks after year of inactivity.
interesting fact: January 2005 was a very interesting ADM Marathon hosted by Triads, which even some non-augers attended.

From 2006 competitive 0augs was almost dead, and by next year it was completely dead. It never made a proper comeback after this. Late 2006 and early 2007 classic game started making a very strong comeback that would continue with occasional peaks into 2012-2013.
Interesting fact: dejavu got a bit silly and screwed the community in 2006, because of which nobody wanted to work with him last year (or now). Around same time, Alex, Nobody, DejaVu, Smugger were working together to release new, better MTL. Team fell apart and project failed, resulting in only an early release that nobody used.
additional interesting fact: the most common aimbot for DXMP worked until 2006, albeit with a modification to bypass the early miniMTL patch. I pestered Alex about it and he added the fix to his CRD mod or one of that generation of patches he worked on.

Note that comeback is exactly what it says it is. If I say comeback it means players from 2000-2003 period returned to game and spearheaded the activity. New generation sporadically raised around that veteran initiative.

Likewise, DXMP would be active today if spearheaded by veteran community. Ste was kind of important part of that activity, his admin issues aside. Someone might even say the game died with him, as Monkee seems to lack interest in playing without him or some other (shades) vets active.

What's with these subliminal shots at people and the whole bitchy attitude towards 0 auggers and basically anyone who doesn't give a crap about augs tho.

Don't call it bitchy attitude just because your own bias. You know very well how much I played 0augs myself. I intentionally word my posts in a way that clarifies things I've heard people bullsh#t about for years. I remember you wearing that signature in atdm vs 0aug "war". And what was the point? Idiots from classic scene having verbal standoff with idiots from 0aug scene. In the end it didn't change the situation in the game. As a 0auger I oppose the common false belief that 0augs is not a mod. It is a mod. And when we talk about DXMP, because of all the idiots it is unfortunately also necessary to constantly emphasise what that DXMP is. Life would be so much easier if one didn't need to do that. If you go to UT forums and talk about UT, people understand what you talk about. In DXMP if you talk about DXMP, people don't understand what you talk about. *love*#ng ace.

If only we played as much as we argue