Applying: Shadowrunner

[chin.democ.]

Looking through DJ's and Nobody's post they are poorly worded, the fact is all recent members have had mandatory trial periods right back to early 2011 and perhaps even 2010.

[ShadowRunner]

It's an interesting experience to go through the application process, having been someone who helped create it.

To be honest, the clan came off as rude and arrogant from the beginning... people staring at me in disbelief and newer walking up to me as if I was in a cage and asking me if I was serious, unintentionally making my jaw drop.

Throughout the process I think you were the only person to ask me any questions, I don't recall them. But I didn't enjoy that conversation either, because it was on msn and not on the forums, like not hearing it from the horse's mouth etc.

Also there is absolutely no challenge to this. It's like "Hi, cya in 2 weeks when we have decided".
No-one posed any questions, no-one played devils advocate and dragged up the past and asked how things are now, no-one tested me on anything, there was like no interview at all, even members that don't really know me at all.

These things I noticed, it makes the procedure a little disorientating and exclusive and you're left thinking, wait a minute when do I go up on stage and audition. Decision is made and personal/character reasons given before you even have put your point across. It's aloof and unintentionally arrogant as a process.

Also, so for the guys on trial, where the hell is the post on trials and what makes a trial different, what is going to happen, what should the trial person do, what specifically can be done to shorten the trial or pass the trial. None of this info exists,

so it's like "hey trial ye?" which makes you feel like saying no.

If there was some info to look, like how long was Cozmo's trial, Chees's trial (I know), etc... then players would understand trial a bit better. Maybe I'm awkward, but it's like signing a direct debit you're not sure what youv'e signed.

[Mastakilla]

The members who don't know you at all are the only ones who voted yes, apart from Majestic perhaps.

Also, EVERYONE is getting a trial, so what's the big deal

[~DJ~]

Errr.. kay'
all I see is you directing your replies towards Nobody, and him only.

Looking through DJ's and Nobody's post they are poorly worded, the fact is all recent members have had mandatory trial periods right back to early 2011 and perhaps even 2010.

I thought that was obvious, if you're active on the forum you know that all the members have been put through trial.
Majster, Chees, Cozmo, all of them.

Jager was put on trial but later denied from gaining full membership.

Poorly worded you say? Please take a look at this (both of you):

Thanks Nobody, I have wish to be an admin or leader, but having server admin is useful when there's no noobination, I did get asked by ppl to kick ppl sometimes when I joined. I kick usually, not ban, as you know. So just applying for ~[FGS]Shadowrunner~ in my ini etc.

Since you're not unknown to FGS, you might get full membership without trial. No other promises can be made until further notice.

Yes, Nobody did thought about that, but since we discussed it, I repeat this again, we mutually agreed that it would be best to put you on trial.
Why did I not mention about the fact that it's mandatory-- I thought he already knew it.
I don't see how mine or Nobody's post is poorly worded. Our posts are therefore explaining him why he did not gained full membership and got a trial instead.

[ShadowRunner]

Masta, Wow, so everyone who knew me voted no, except Majestic?

Well I shouldn't join then obviously, thanks for not wasting my time.

Also, EVERYONE is getting a trial, so what's the big deal

The way it was slapped in my face along with personal crap and accusations that it is necessary because I think ppl are evil? Doesn't exactly market your new scheme very well.

Also, if I do get EM into the Hive Bar, it's either [FGS]Shadowrunner or Shadowrunner, no training many metabolic end product tag for me. It's like you want the whole world to know we had arguments three years ago.


I think I have publicly humiliated myself enough. I have apologized enough. I have been demoted enough. I have admitted my management errors and mistakes as a friend. I don't think anyone can say I have beef with Noodz or anyone else in FGS. I don't see any reason for applying rules for new guys to a former leader, particularly at this time. If that is too arrogant for you, that I have done all the above and then quietly applied, a former leader wishing to just stick his tag on again enjoy the fights he has with members in the game, then ok I'm wrong, arrogant and shouldn't be in the clan.

[Mastakilla]

I meant that the ones who don't know you voted yes because they look up to you, they didn't ask any questions. I and some other did ask questions, specifically to how you would react to be put on trial.

[Majestic]

Okay, so, here's what I think about this. I think you belong in this clan and that a trial would be unnecessary, as I know you've informally associated yourself with FGS during your away time. That being the case, I view a trial period for a test of loyalty to be obsolete. As the statements from the voting topic have been made public anyway, I might as well go ahead too. Unfortunately, it's not just me and another very senior member of this clan who gets to decide this and there are some people who do want to see that loyalty test I think is unnecessary. So, we decided to, because of the combination of mandatory trial time for every applicant and a test of loyalty, let you in on a trial basis. Why 'the root of all evil' came into play I'm not sure, as chinny said, I think the posts are poorly worded, as it seems to bring personal problems into matters when it's really not.
What I don't think is that you should take this as an insult. I understand if you do and don't want to go through that trial period, but I sure hope you'll find you can put your pride aside and be a member of our clan again. Again, this is nothing personal (based on the better worded arguments in the private section application topic, that is) and we're not out to humiliate you. So please, bear with me.

[Majster]

Shadowrunner, I can't believe your reaction. Demoted, degreded, humiliated? What? If we said "no", you would be demote and humiliate really. What is diffrence with being full member now or month or two months later? I was happy you when you applied and you are ruining it now. Chill man, don't be angry! For what this nerves? It isn't right behavior for former leader. Deus Ex it's computer game only. Computer games should give fun, than annoy.
Don't worry, you will be full member. Everyone respect you.
About questions. I didn't have any question, because I know you. I know your projects, I try support it. I think questions in your application topic weren't need.

[ShadowRunner]

@ Majster and Majestic.

A mandatory trial system for all applicants is a logical and sound concept, but 2 months is not in my mind. Don't shoot Noodz for opening his mouth before I spoke, I was still going to politely question a trial, simply because it was like signing a piece of paper and not knowing what I was signing. I was going to spend time, ask questions, look to see if the next 8 weeks are the best for me. Somehow I lost my cool and complained about the insinuations and what is basically not true and never actually was either.

This is a disaster, because the whole point of joining was to end the constant aliasing and questions about my membership.
To stop me feeling bad to the people always asking me to join. And to enjoy wearing the tag again.

You see my point of view. Guy wants a 2 week trial, ok no problem, it's normal, but Guy wants a 2 month trial and wants in front of me, to let everyone know what he thinks I think of him, what a problem I am , how he is not "convinced", how I need to prove "identify with the clan as it is now". Sounds like a lot of unnecessary hard work to me, that I am never going to satisfy this guy and I don't think I have been unreasonable in asking for time to think about the offer, or question the point of a 2 month trial in my exceptional case.

[ShadowRunner]

@ DJ, with respect you come across as unreasonable like Nobody and Kaiden, because the reasons I started getting annoyed and the reasons I left were entirely because of bad behaviour or disrespect in the clan to each other, or controlling creative activies. Those were my reasons, you can argue about this, but it was cheating, firing neutrons, Krisz being stubborn, me not understanding why, and a failure over 2 years to keep a fresh map on a server despite patient polite reminders (while at the same time being banned from running a server you COULD upload a map to), made me want to leave and question certain people's attitudes towards me or FGS. You aren't convincing anyone that it is necessary to further humiliate the guy, drag up the past, support untruths and lies about what I think.

My reasons for complaining were very reasonable. The way I complained and the decision to leave was stupid. It doesn't make your story of the trial decision any more valid, just confirms the fact that yesterday and today's reasons have changed.

Perhaps I should leave it for now and re-apply in future. This metabolic end product from Kaiden and Nobody and friends isn't going to stop. You can of course prove me wrong over the next year or so, I think I met you more than halfway here, you don't see me turning up in their threads with insinuations. All you've done is prove yourselves to be the ones to blame for much of the trouble and that you're unwilling to promote peace.

[~[FGS]SaSQuATcH~]

Rollo. You keep talking in generalities while you are ignoring facts. This is not going to get us anywhere. Please address your concerns with facts. The only thing I think you have a right to complain about at this point is that there was indeed no interview, no questions asked. But you have to admit that even despite of that, we all agreed that we are ready to have you back on board with the same terms as any other candidate would have for the past 2 years. Now you may choose to accept this, or not. It's your call.

[~][FGS][Nobody~]

Also I feared asking questions because I wanted to avoid unnecessary arguments.
The intention of my post where i offered you to host your own altfire server was my way of showing YOU that I am less of a "stubborn donkey" as two years ago.
YET AGAIN YOU MISINTERPRETED EVERYTHING AGAIN.
If I were to reapply to FGS, I would go the normal trial way too WITHOUT BITCHING, because I could step aside myself.

[ShadowRunner]

You probably weren't thinking when Sonny spoke, I probably overreacted. Fair assessment?

Concerns?

1. 2 months? With respect, no thanks, maybe Sonny is right, that is shitty. Masta and Fear came and went if I recall, but they had spent time in other clans, their trial period length was perhaps justified. Newer players too. I can not see any reason to impose such a length other than to impose the seed of distrust. If that's my fault, you want to blame me for that, go ahead, this is not a bitching, just I'm telling you what I will and won't do.

2. I notice Kaiden enjoyed full freedom of speech, but Sonny's first post was dealt with by admin immediately.

I applied to FGS because I honestly thought things had changed, however once I re-applied, suddenly there was a problem with members and Kaiden again and then once Sonny had spoken, there was a sort of argument or disagreement and then it was impossible for me not to say anything. If people had just waited to see what I say to Nobody and Sonny we wouldn't be here now.

This is a concern yes, I thought my application would close a chapter, but it did the opposite.

I would prefer that second server discussion goes in a server topic, not the app topic, because simply, I can not finance that server or work on it for a while, I chose to do Hengsha, because that was my option available. Altfire was not an option to me at that time. Also who am I to dictate? I'm not the only guy who has plans and ideas for altfire servers.
But let's discuss that in another topic?

What made me mad was being offered a trial at the same as reading that Sonny is wrong and I am/was a problem.
I sent a message to FGS and the message I got back was not friendly, inviting, forgiving of the past in any way, it was 2 months and handed along with some untruths and insulting remarks to be honest.

It sounds like you spent two weeks in the vote topic discussing what COULD happen, rather than what IS happening and your mistrust has rubbed off on the public and the applicant.

[ShadowRunner]

OK so I have answered your questions and perhaps I should ask the same. WHAT'S SUCH A BIG DEAL ABOUT ME REJOINING?

Let Kaiden, DJ and Nobody or anyone speak. Let anyone come here and say anything they want about the past.

I'll start. I think it is fair to say, the only thing I ever did to another human being in DXMP was complain or report something that was affecting someone or was illegal or immoral. Did I hack anyone, did I ban many people, Did I *love* up anyone's computer? Did I swear at anyone much? Did I insult people personally, or did I complain about them. Was I in 20 clans? Did I cheat?

pot/kettle?

When I start thinking like this, I start getting really mad at the people who want a *loving* fight about my membership and suggest i hate them and need 2 months trial.

So I think I stated my concerns fairly in depth and well enough for you to get some answer. Decide if it is arrogant or reasonable.

Heh, look on the bright side, 3 days gone already, just sitting here trying to explain that I don't hate Nobody and that I need time to think about a 2 month trial.

[Mastakilla]

I don't think anyone said anything about your history at all in this topic... Especially before you started complaining. The only history Nobody had pointed out is that you are a previous member, and that it doesn't mean you should have an easyer time joining then anyone else. We're honestly not interested in digging up the past we just want you to complete your trial and be a full member again. You're just not getting special treatment, you're going through the same process as all others who want to join. Take it or leave it?

I want you to take it, by the way.