Applying: Shadowrunner

[ShadowRunner]

Well I dont expect everything to be always updated, but you can see why I saw goalposts appearing to change.

@ Cozmo Hmm, I actually was expecting to see another rolloback, I mean rollback ? hehe, sounds like I mean something, but I'm just having a LAUGH with my FRIENDS.

I think its unreasonable of me not to accept a trial, if that is your final offer. But I dont feel its unreasonable to question a 2 month trial, maybe I'm not as cool as Cozmo, but I'd squirm watching people swear and stuff, with a *loving* silly hat on. Maybe I've been there, done that and got the T-Shirt, why do I need a shittier T-shirt, I *loving* led the clan for a while lol, Cozmo didn't. Or Maybe Cozmo is just definitely more cool.

What can I say, Cozmo puts me in a really difficult spot. rolloback,rollback, sounds like a song...
lol and the blue colour of triallists is like your bathroom floor, we wanted orange j/k lol...
Shadowrunner v Krisz and Nobody, any gametype/map, loser has to wear a silly name for 2 months.
This has been trial of the century already?

@ Masta , your post is really reasonable, but its impossible to give you a short answer. I definitely would NOT have trialled Cozmo. also your question is more like about internal FGS stuff, not public etc for obvious reasons I could pm you a really long answer...also I've no interest in shaping FGS anymore or arguing clan politics or procedure, if I were asked to vote, Id vote against mandatory for everyone, Cozmo trial wtf? We had already invited him several times. Same for Nobody so what was the point of asking Nobody to trial, it would have been silly, since he had been a clan long time and done a lot.
Same with Cozmo when his app came, it should have been just like "finally". I'm only saying mind, because I have been asked. Not saying it's wrong, just how I vote.

Personally I think leader should choose who gets trial or not, what's the point of a leader otherwise. If not then a recruiting manager or admin should choose. Chinny we gave no trial to, it's like a politeness thing, respect.
The people getting trials should either have broken rules in past, be too new, have not good understanding of dx, have no familiarity ie stranger, or etc... should be some issue for it, otherwise I think it is like getting a bit Bob Page up there on that Aquinas hill... like sweating everyone?

[Poor]

I probably shouldn't get involved but I see a possible misunderstanding here that is causing both sides to go in circles.

It's not shitty, it's adequate.
People leaving the clan had their reasons to leave.
In this case the trial time will ensure that those people are convinced of the clan like it is now.

You interpret this as "they are unconvinced of me."

I interpret this as: "You left the clan because you were unhappy with it. The trial time will ensure that you are convinced of the clan in its current state."

This interpretation is backed up by the previous post:

Furthermore, it gives us some certainty that members who rejoin are really willing to join the clan again, which they prove by accepting and passing the trial time.

So from my interpretation, FGS is giving you time to ensure that you really want to be a part of the clan rather than having you joining as a full member and then you finding intolerable faults with it.

YESTERDAY

The trial is to prove your conviction towards FGS.
...but it's important that you can still identify with FGS and its members like it is now.
I also know that you think me being the root of all evil...

TODAY

The trial thing is how we do things now and how it's been for some time now, why should we make an exception?

We came to the conclusion that a former membership does not justify a skipping of the trial period.
Furthermore, it gives us some certainty that members who rejoin are really willing to join the clan again, which they prove by accepting and passing the trial time.

From the application approval post, the first sentence states that former members are not exempted from a trial period. The second sentence explains why or at least further reasons why an ex-member should get a trial period. So I don't see them as changing their official reason on the trial decision.

---

Personally, I don't see much reason to join a DXMP clan these days. What benefits do you get? You can wear a clan tag without pissing a few people off, have access to an seldomly used private forum, and maybe, just maybe, get admin or moderator powers on a FGS server. It's not worth it in my opinion. I think FGS should stop accepting new applications and focus on supporting DXMP and archiving its history like the Alpha clan.

Also, FGS has many modders and some have called it a modding clan. However, I noticed there is no real [FGS] branding on any mods. The modders in FGS work on their own projects and they are released under the modder's name, not FGS. So I wouldn't call FGS a modding clan, rather it's a group that has modders that do their own separate things.

Well, those are just some of my observations. I don't intend to offend anyone.

[ShadowRunner]

Poor I think you are right on all counts.

The trial time will ensure that you are convinced of the clan in its current state."

I understand. So then this is totally unnecessary, if I thought there was something wrong still with FGS, or it's leaders, or ever did, why would I join. Leaving was kind of really I just wanted to map and host and no-one tell me what I can't host.
These days I don't care. I am making smaller fight maps.

I think you are right possibly about the FGS branding issue.
Some people possibly used the same "FGS" name in assets twice. We did not have a FGS system of production. I initial all my assets if theres any chance of that, simple solution. Kalman has set up the FGS FB group. I set up the FGS developers page on moddb. People are free to use it. It's for FGS.

Why would ANYONE not think I want to be in FGS, or have any issues with it's members. What did I do?

[~[FGS]SaSQuATcH~]

Last semester I wrote quite a few essays, time to get back in practice

Shadowrunner, I can see you repeating yourself about being 'invited' to the clan by 'half of FGS' already. I think it would help our case a lot if you identified the people you talked to and say what exactly they told you because you seem to be convinced that you should've been exempted from the the trial because of the invitations and the things you've done for DX and FGS. You're right, you've done a lot and we recognize that but you seem to be ignoring this recognition, you're questioning us about this constantly and therefore chasing us back to this annoying loop of us trying to convince you of the opposite. I honestly hope that you're going to understand this one day and stop trying to prove the same point all over because what you are doing right now is only proving our fears we had about you to be justified. Noodlez is right, you're either not reading the posts we write to you or you consciously disregard them, but here are some quotes as a reminder:

Alright, the application is over.
Welcome on board, Shadowrunner!

The application took a bit longer because we were undecided about some points, like trial.
We came to the conclusion that a former membership does not justify a skipping of the trial period.
Furthermore, it gives us some certainty that members who rejoin are really willing to join the clan again, which they prove by accepting and passing the trial time.
As you know, the trial period comes along with wearing the tag [FGS-T]. It takes up to 2 months but it can be shortened, basing on the behaviour and actions of the applicant.

After this was posted, you received tons of congratz, then Sonny spoke:

I think It's kind of shitty one of the founding members of FGS has to be put in trial, especially considering the history he has within the clan and community but that's my opinion obviously. ^^'

Up until this point no one brought up your history in your application as a demonstration of respect for your hard work and attempt to avoid an argument. The reason behind that is simple: We wanted you to be back in FGS despite of all the things that happened in the past. No one was complaining about whatever happened but you got the wrong idea and wrote the following essay about that very past that no one mentioned.

Spoiler:

To answer Nobody,

I don't feel it is shitty, I just feel I have failed in some way in this application.

1. I doubt my name and the tag fit properly with ~.

2. I didn't join another clan, despite several offers. I didn't start one. I didn't remove "FGS" from any forum account name. In fact I have never been in any other clan in the last 6 years, except when I was newb for a few weeks. I quit a REN trial to continue FGS, so I wonder how many FGS have only ever been in one clan for that long? All my EM correspondance was with the FGS tag. To be asked if I am serious makes me feel like I have failed. It doesn't make you feel like complaining, just makes you concerned, I applied because I thought there were no issues between myself and FGS.

I can understand why FGS might want a trial but I've already apologized, I was shocked when I came back from a break to hear about cheating and see admins firing neutrons from shock rifles and yeah, I'm sure no-one wants to revisit the argument, I made a mistake, I left over personal differences of opinion, it was not any issue to do with FGS itself, but that point seems to have been lost. My mistake was to put my personal differences before the clan itself. If any of those issues still existed, I wouldn't have re-applied. By re-applying is it not very obvious that I am eating much humble pie? Even Kaiden couldn't resist How much humble pie is needed exactly and for how long?

3. Did we not set up a FB group, moddb page, is it not 60th out of 17,000 right now? Do I just play DX or do I do stuff with other FGS members and spend time with them? I seriously don't know what else I could do to prove commitment to FGS or DXMP or FGS members. I put myself down for UR project, Cozmo and Hengsha, plus I was an avid SG fan and still work on them, plus I am ready anytime to convert the WW2 stuff to either a giant RPG or AG maps or both. Chinny works harder, but I try.

4. I must have talked about re-applying with half the clan first or vice versa, they talked to me. I do regret not joining last Christmas when Kosh asked, but I have been telling people for months that I would get around to re-applying after hard work on Hengsha and then the work took longer and longer. I don't know why this has come as such a surprise and people are asking me if this is a genuine application.

5. I am really surprised most of all, because I don't swear hardly, I don't massacre relentlessly too often, I always teach people altfire bind or forum address etc, I'm not the best player in the world, but I don't swear, admin abuse, insult other clans, mess up the teams, bug (except floor nades), I dont quit battles, reset scores, I don't hang out with any former antagonists of FGS, I didn't rival you guys, start a clan, or badmouth you, so yes, it does come as a surprise.

Well thank you very much for considering the application and inviting me to trial, it was actually an application for full membership and nothing more, so I am confused about the "convinced" issue, I don't see what change I can bring if I am just a member. If you don't mind I'd like to think about your offer.

Here's what you didn't understand:

The trial thing is how we do things now and how it's been for some time now, why should we make an exception?, that would not be fair on those that have applied in the last year or so that had to have a mandatory trial period.

You're just not getting special treatment, you're going through the same process as all others who want to join.

You're right, there's no public topic about it. But you also claim that you talked to FGS members about rejoining. Chinny says you didn't talk to him. You definitely didn't talk to Noodz, DJ or me either. I'd like to ask you again who you talked to and what did they say to you because that might very well clear up some things. Although there's no public topic about it, here's how we dealt with some of our "recent" applications:

Congratulations, you're accepted to FGS, Cozmo!
Here some further information about how it will go on:
Like every new member, you need to pass a trial time, where you can prove yourself. (e.g. showing a certain presence, providing further results of what you a presented in your application, etc)
The length of the trial time depends on your input and behaviour but doesn't exceed two months.

Congratulations, you're accepted to FGS, Majster!
Here some further information about how it will go on:
Like every new member, you need to pass a trial time, where you can prove yourself. (e.g. showing a certain presence, providing further results of what you a presented in your application, etc)
The length of the trial time depends on your input and behaviour but doesn't exceed two months.

Congratulations, you're in, Kalman.
Like every new member, you've been accepted for a 3 months trial.
If no major metabolic end product happens, it will automatically turn into a normal membership.
You'll be added to the FGS-DX member group within the next hours.

Off-topic: Noodz busted for messing up his announcement for Kalman

I'm sorry if you were misinformed or if you misunderstood the way applications work in FGS. I personally believe that in general it's better to ask questions if you're unsure than jumping into something without knowing what you are doing.

I honestly hope that you'll start reading the things that we say to you, and instead of questioning our rules, motives and members just accept FGS the way it is, because that's just ALL we ever hoped for in your application.

Edit: Forgot to respond to your 11/2 point, so here it is: 11 people voted yes for putting you on trial. This means that 11 of us thought that even though we may have our doubts about you, we still want to give you a shot to become part of our team again. 11 against 2 does not mean that 11 people wanted you to immediately become a full member without questions asked, that would've been a different poll, a different conversation. On a different note, the poll results are not public information so you shouldn't use them to try to prove anything because you were never supposed to see it. The reason is simple and probably older than FGS itself: we don't want applicants to get the wrong idea because that leads to confusion and misinterpretation of numbers, exactly like in this case.

[Fear]

I think this is the first time i've enjoyed reading a topic so much when absolutely smashed-high

[ShadowRunner]

Kris, there was no need for that essay.

Here's what you didn't understand:

You mean here's what you did post in recruiting advert?

To answer your question I have spoken to Chinny, just not recently about it. Kosh invited me, explained a vote i think, ask him , i dont remember, I had convos with other members, recently majster said he preferred [FGS]Shadowrunner to my silly names, he said this on Bunker 3? weeks ago, I had plenty of convos

IT's also not true you had no contact with me this year, did you not contact me recently and say "OI" and I write you drunk pm back? And we have spoken since I left more than once?

So you are saying to me 11 members voted against me wearing [FGS] during my trial , then I don't re-apply.
How many people seriously don't trust me, except the leadership. Seems like no-one agrees with you, Sonny too.
Krisz are you seriously saying you can't stand the thought of me being [FGS]Shadowrunner for 2 months and revoting at the end of trial. What's your problem. You have the right to speak. Let's hear it. Why deny me that right?
The T tag doesnt really fit and my name is not Shadowrun, and ppl are asking too many questions already.
I feel you are trying to blame me, you dont want me asking questions, but you posted nothing about trial before.

I have only one question, why deny me the one thing I asked for Krisz? You want to tell everyone why Shadowrunner should not put on his tag? I am not new to FGS. What is your problem Do you not think you are being incredibly unfriendly towards this gesture of solidarity from me to you, by re-applying.

Since you are complaining, you are making it even more uncomfortable to wear the silly name tag atm.
You complain about ppl complaining theres no info on the recruiting, but as I expected this topic is now about me complaining, not really blaming anyone except shadow for the trial info.

ok, sure... whatever, but I'm wearing the silly awful tag now, howbout some respect for ex-leader does it.
Are you gonna decide quickly if I can wear [FGS] during training or do I need to reconsider my application?

[Fear]

Rollo i think your questioning too many things man honestly, just be happy you we're accepted im glad your back in but you have to let all this metabolic end product slide your not being treated any differently than a new recruit. By applying your starting a new chapter in fgs by moving past whatever differences occured before which lead to you leaving in the first place. All this metabolic end product needs to be dropped honestly, btw if any of this sounds over grammical its cos im fucked, and ye man jus forgive and forget all

[ShadowRunner]

Rollo i think your questioning too many things man honestly, just be happy you we're accepted im glad your back in but you have to let all this metabolic end product slide your not being treated any differently than a new recruit. By applying your starting a new chapter in fgs by moving past whatever differences occured before which lead to you leaving in the first place. All this metabolic end product needs to be dropped honestly, btw if any of this sounds over grammical its cos im fucked, and ye man jus forgive and forget all

Dan, I'm not a new recruit though am I...

and the way it has been delivered is really unfriendly, mysterious, inconsistent with their recruiting page and I now feel distinctly unwelcome.

You ask me forgive and forget, metabolic end product man, then why put me through as a new recruit and do it in this "unconvinced" way too. And why start blaming me for the lack of recruiting info. It's not my intention to complain but ppl are doing a good job of making Sonny and me do it, or giving me the blame, the recruiting was haphazard a little, I seriously did not know about trial and had to say "sorry I need to think about". I've stuck the tag on, so who now is really being big or not.

Are you telling me 11 ppl vote I wear a stupid training tag?

If FGS can offer a trial, wearing [FGS] and revoting at anytime that would not be insulting. I'm not a new recruit. You know the worst I'm gonna do is possibly moan about a map.

I accept a trial, but not the silly tag during a 2 month trial, which COULD be shorter. That's my offer. Always was. Vote as much as you want, as many times as you want, but dont make a trained guy wear the training tag.

Whatever Krisz says about me complaining, I think I'm being reasonable, I put the tag on, now howbout some respect and answer to my question, can I wear the [FGS]tag during my trial please?

I don't want to talk anything else. can I wear the [FGS]tag during my trial please?

[~[FGS]SaSQuATcH~]

All of this makes no sense to me lol. Up until this point you were complaining about your trial and how you feel unwelcome and cheated or whatever. However I guess you're happy with trial itself now but not with the trial TAG. For the record, that is a WHOLE different conversation and I personally don't see a problem with you wearing the [FGS] tag instead of [FGS-T]. Just like we discussed putting you on trial, this is something we'll have to vote on in private again.

Rollo I saw you rejecting the trial offer about three times in this very topic, please be clear about your point of view and concerns you may have. We are talking about a lot of different things and you seem to be thinking that I'm against all of this. I'm trying to represent the general point of view of [FGS] here based on what we talked about in private (although I no longer have access to the topic since it's locked) but you come at me assuming that I have a personal vendetta against you and think that you don't deserve to be here. I'm sorry, that's not true and I could've told you how I thought of this before you even applied, had you sent me a pm about it. If you want to know what I personally thought of your application when you posted it, then here it is: I wanted you back because I know your capabilities and the energy you put into things. You probably work more on DXMP projects in a month than I ever did in total. So despite of your quick temper and history I still wanted to welcome you back, my only concern was exempting you from the trial which we as a clan set up for a number of reasons. I just hoped we can settle this without the drama but metabolic end product got serious when you didn't get what you expected.

So all in all here are the things we need to clear up now:

1. Did you accept the trial offer of [FGS]?

2. Do you have an issue with the trial tag? Although you obviously do, it should be clearly stated in your official application topic and not ranted about in spam section. (Note that [FGS-T] implies trial and not trainee. We never thought of your trial as a training, we thought of it exactly as what it is: a trial)

3. Most importantly: Do you finally accept [FGS] the way it is (which includes all current rules and traditions we may have until we officially decide to change them) and its members? I'm sure you do, but just like every other issue it has to be clarified and not assumed because assumptions are the main sources of shitstorms.

4. Is there anything else you wish to add/suggest/ask?

[Mastakilla]

He doesn't accept the FGS-T tag. He doesn't care about being on trial but wants to wear FGS tag anyway. I say let him, who cares

[Kaiden]

@ DJ, with respect you come across as unreasonable like Nobody and Kaiden,

Let Kaiden, DJ and Nobody or anyone speak.

What are you even on about lol. How am I unreasonable.

This metabolic end product from Kaiden and Nobody and friends isn't going to stop.

Where did I bash you?

Waiting for a reply.

[ShadowRunner]

Kaiden, I just assumed that you were here to disapprove and it seems so.

All of this makes no sense to me lol. Up until this point you were complaining about your trial and how you feel unwelcome and cheated or whatever.

Show me where I said cheated. You want to FIGHT????

Yes I was complaining about the trial because of the length and because Noodz stipulated the T tag. However I then realized when arguing about a trial was never going to end. So I decided to be the bigger person and put on the tag, but then discovered it doesn't fit and it raises too many questions and disturbances in game, it confuses some people.

quick temper

Wow Krisz. It saddens me that having stopped me wearing the tag and asking me to formally re-apply, that you guys could then steal this application to make personal remarks, yet STILL not answer "Point 1" of my reply to the offer.
Funny Krisz,, I think I am being quite patient myself. Sitting on server answering stupid questions about a stupid tag. Sitting on forums 4 days now waiting for an answer.

Also you have missed the fact that my application was application to be [FGS]Shadowrunner exactly.
Read again. This was stated about halfway through the voting. Would you mind considering that post,
it is about 2 weeks old probably.

1. Did you accept the trial offer of [FGS]?

Did you not see a screenshot, (despite the fact that admin has not answered my first reply to the offer.)

2. Do you have an issue with the trial tag?

1. Before I received the offer, it was stated very clearly that I was applying to wear [FGS] And in my first reply to the offer it was very clear that I repeated that my application was as [FGS]Shadowrunner and as the lowest rank possible.
I think I mentioned when there is a wave of SG and Altfire maps, that I would like access to add them or replace them with the updates etc. The voting period was not a great experience, because I rightly assumed that the "unconvinced" would need convincing, or there would be some problems. And it has been the case, people are insulting me still.
Which is why I think it is reasonable for me to tell you politely to anally rape yourself with your T tag, I'm not new to FGS.
I could say the same about the trial to be honest, the truth of the situation has surfaced somewhat, members seem to want to ignore and insult even in my app topic, well I don't care, I just want an answer on my offer points/queries.

3. Most importantly: Do you finally accept [FGS] the way it is (which includes all current rules and traditions we may have until we officially decide to change them) and its members? I'm sure you do, but just like every other issue it has to be clarified and not assumed because assumptions are the main sources of shitstorms.

seems like you and Kaiden just want to continue this thread all about question 3 until you prove I'm a terrorist hacker, am I right? OK I am quick tempered, but this is a pathetic question? You know I have already answered this question more than once in my application.

Krisz, read my first reply to Nobody's offer and find anything to disagree with that? I was simply saying that tag doesn't fit and saying good reasons voters should consider, if there is any vote during trial, or shortening trial, or having no trial etc. Just a list of good points isn't it, there's no terrorist hacking is there.

4. Is there anything else you wish to add/suggest/ask?

No but I hope you've stopped to complain about me and accuse me on point/question 3 until I lose my "quick" temper.

FGS missed my posts and requests for [FGS]Shadowrunner, even in my first reply to Nobody. I thought it was pretty clear when I made a post about the application being simply to put back on [FGS] and get on with it.

So it came as a surprise and perhaps an insult to some people, that Nobody then offered me a new tag only membership, having previously been the only person to complain and insist that a re-application was necessary.

Having obeyed and made the thread, now it's being used for disgraceful purposes, ignore questions, make insults and lies that I said "cheated" or I think that "Nobody is the root of all evil". It's sad that you don't want to move on.

Since it is only 2 people against 11, I feel it is reasonable to continue posting until I get answer on the tag.

[ShadowRunner]

Re-read my posts before you offered. I will be a VERY small part of FGS if it please Krisz and Nobody if you can hurry up and recognize me as [FGS]Shadowrunner during trial. It's a matter of principle I'm pushing for based on things, including the trial of this thread already. And also, it's based on the voting and the fact that this year I don't think you have any evidence to support your negative theories, after all you're a minority of 2 against 11 with no evidence, other than this thread, which, btw, you haven't answered my points/questions. I feel you as a minority are going too far too insist I must re-invent my name. Just saying.

[~][FGS][Nobody~]

So it came as a surprise and perhaps an insult to some people, that Nobody then offered me a new tag only membership, having previously been the only person to complain and insist that a re-application was necessary.

The new tag is not MY offer but results out of the application rules.
I'm not the only person that insisted of a re-application. I simply postulated it. I already told you, don't judge the messenger.

Re-read my posts before you offered. I will be a VERY small part of FGS if it please Krisz and Nobody if you can hurry up and recognize me as [FGS]Shadowrunner during trial. It's a matter of principle I'm pushing for based on things, including the trial of this thread already. And also, it's based on the voting and the fact that this year I don't think you have any evidence to support your negative theories, after all you're a minority of 2 against 11 with no evidence, other than this thread, which, btw, you haven't answered my points/questions. I feel you as a minority are going too far too insist I must re-invent my name. Just saying.

Now you sound pretty cocky to be honest. That poll result based on letting you join for TRIAL like any other application.
If we had made a poll for a direct full membership, it wouldn't have been 11 - 2.


Okay, since [FGS] loves polls, we'll set up a poll about the tag issue.

[ShadowRunner]

I'm feeling sad to be honest, not cocky, I apologize for the remark.

Personally I think a poll is unnecessary, but if you must continue this public debate on Shadowrunner then do so.

I have accepted the trial and put on your new more humble tag, not very cocky is it.

From Ichotolot, if he doesn't mind me quoting

~[FGS-T]~Shadowrunne ... sorry but the majority would have it

Does that mean it has already been decided that that majority of FGS members want me to wear this during trial?

~[FGS-T]~Shadowrunne? (that's a question just in case it is not clear)