~[FGS]Wunderland~ ALTFIRE V-Server 2 Maplist Revision.

[chin.democ.]

I thought it was about time we gave the maplist a little shakeup as the numbers have fallen dramatically, and I would love to see the server popular especially for the guys paying for hosting of the servers and this website.

So I have been looking at all the maps in the last few days and have come up with a list of maps which I personally feel shouldn't be on the server. I've numbered the maps and have shown pictures so you guys know exactly which map I am referring to and also I'm giving the reason why I feel it shouldn't be on there.

I really need your opinions about my findings and whether you agree or not with my opinions, feedback here is essential.

Map Cut list

1. DXMP_Altfire_Prodigy



It's not that I dislike this map but the map has lots of misaligned brushes. This is Shadowrunner's map before he learned of using the grid and so he can be forgiven for this, and it's fantastic map I would just like to see him fix the errors and then it could be re-hosted. Also the vacuum grenades in the spawns need to go.

2. DXMP_Amtrak_Warz



Another one of Shadowrunner's maps, he has recently said he wants to add more cover in this map as it's a little too open in my opinion and so I think this needs to go and when the new version is ready it can go on.

3. DXMP_Canyon_Area15_Beta



Basically it's not as good as Canyon Base which is very similar (and has a bridge) and so I don't see why this should be on the server, the doors interfere with the player too, this map is covered by the superior Canyon Base in my opinion.

4. DXMP_Desert_Strike



One of my old maps, I never really did finish this, I may update this in the near future (I'll make sure there are no vacuum grenades in the spawns!) so untill then this map can bite the dust.

5. DXMP_Encounter_b5



This is another one of mine, this map has a huge BSP hole which simply wont do, I'm currently in the process of updating this map so this old one can go.

6.DXMP_Helibase



Very much the single player map with a few edits here and there, I don't think the map plays well and the map is either very tight corridors and stair cases or very open space, I just don't like this map very much atall.

7. DXMP_HK_TheDayAfter



I think this map is a campers map you have two buildings opposite each other and a big open space in between, not a great fan of this map, opinions on this please.

8. DXMP_Main_Battle_Arena_v3



An old map which is very basic and quite awful If I can be so blunt, take it off now please!

9. DXMP_Mantracomplex



Great lookng map but it only has low tech weapons! (I think there's a rifle around but it's hard to get to and throws up issues of fairness).

10. DXMP_Sector_32



One of my first maps, the only good thing about this map is the lighting, it's a very poor excuse for a map in truth, needs to go.

11. DXMP_Titan_Ship



Another one of my old maps, this map always has people complaining about it being too dark, I would like to edit this map in future, I would like to add Anihex's Multi Tele teleporters to this map and generally make it more interesting and playable. For now though it can go.

12. DXMP_Towers



We have Towers_3 on the map list which I think is far superior and so I don't feel that we should have Towers aswell as Towers_3.

13. DXPZ_Cybris



Looks fantastic but you spawn with no weapons and have to acquire them about the map, and for this reason I don't think it belongs on the server, even if it does look as good as Icho in leathers.

Okay that's my unlucky thirteen, opinions please, and for god's sake someone put the kettle on I'm spitting feathers here.

[~DJ~]

Good list, very good list. I agree with basically everything what you've stated there.

I'll try throwing in some too if I feel something..

[~[FGS]SaSQuATcH~]

I think removing Pacman Abandoned Twinz was a mistake, they might not match the description of a classic altfire map but at least they dragged players on the server. At least you had players to game with.

[chin.democ.]

I think removing Pacman Abandoned Twinz was a mistake, they might not match the description of a classic altfire map but at least they dragged players on the server. At least you had players to game with.

I totally agree that we need some non traditional maps to pull in numbers absolutely right Chris, but if we cut out the dead wood first then we can look at adding afterwards, do you have any opinions on the above maps?

[~[FGS]SaSQuATcH~]

Perhaps remove cybris, add towers3 instead of towers, re-add above maps at least temporarly.

I think mantracomplex should be removed, melee fight is much more fun on ATDM, altfire is too slow for it with lowgrav etc.

We also need CMD and A51 (maybe SG versions too), Cathedral (a version that meets altfire requirements possibly).

I'd say keep the rest, but as far as I remember the most successful servers had short maplists. Think about DXSG, back when it had A51 and CMD, people were much more delighted for a new map than they are now when you add another map to a list with 20 other maps already.

[chin.democ.]

Yeah I personally don't like massively long maplists and I think they can be overwhelming and put people off voting alltogether. I've made a note of your requests, thanks.

[~][FGS][Nobody~]

Yeah I personally don't like massively long maplists and I think they can be overwhelming and put people off voting alltogether. I've made a note of your requests, thanks.

That statement basically hits the point I think.
It's the similar with restaurants. Those with a small menu are often better than those with big menus.

Anyway.. let's try to give some opinion about the maps.. (Mind this is just my opinion, which doesn't count more or less than any other opinion here!)

1. I'm not familiar with it. If it's a good map and it's just the brush alignment, then I'd keep it. (if it causes BSP trash, then it must be revised of course)
2. It's a great map, made for far distance energy rifling. Some more cover might be useful but too much cover would kill what the map stands for. I'd keep it for now.
3. I agree, two maps are one too much. I'd remove it.
4. Since we have too maps anyway, remove it.
5. Basically a good map.. for close combat and rifle action but BSP holes are a nasty thing and a reason to remove it for now.
6. Hmm.. in my opinion most singleplayer maps are not suitable for Altfire, since altfire is so different from the original DeusEx gameplay. So yeah.. remove it.
7. I'd remove it too. It's too small for rifle action and too open for close combat..
8. This is worse than pacman. remove it.
9. I'd keep it if it really had only low tech weapons. Since there is a rifle, remove it.
10. Hmm.. I'd actually keep it. from what I remember you could jump and do rifle action and if you wanted close combat you could run between the containers.
11. I agree. The darkness is making headache. remove it.
12. Same as point 3. I'd remove it too.
13. Yes, it was not designed for actual matches (at least not from the aspect of items). It should be removed.

[ShadowRunner]

Since he is active and his map is unprotected and also fairly unique, I would not consider removing any Mantra maps. Since his maps are still better than anything any current mappers can make, I don't see the point of removing them.

Before considering small maps...Scoutz only works because there is a central cover, unlike "snow" or "call of duty" or "twinz" and also only one strong wep and no grenades at all. Also it is perfect, no errors. Even then it is not that small a map, only a little smaller than DXMP_Proteus. Same reason you want more cover on Amtrack. Altfire maps are suited to cities or maps which aren't one main room. e.g EnemyAtTheGates or Proteus. Also Scoutz has protected spawns with 3 exits, snow doesn't have protected spawns. Twinz, Call of Duty, Snow, all the small maps are either unsuitable for altfire or have errors that need fixing etc.

I think it is great to experiment and update the maps, but maybe look at the classic altfire maps and WHY they work. I'm not saying don't have small maps, but really, make sure the small maps are designed for altfire.

333's map is there, because it is on the list to be converted to SG.

[ShadowRunner]

sorry dp but why not try the maps that made the server legendary...

Rattery Park
EnemyAt the Gates
8Red
Duality
HouseArrest
Mantracomplex
None of these are small.

Points to consider:

1.Wunderland doesn't just create players, it creates mappers too. The camera in Cybris is worth it alone. You could ask Mantra to make a TDM version. It sets a standard in mapping, shows what is possible. If Wunderland and dxms didn't exist, unlikely that so many of us would have been inspired to map. I would consider having showpiece maps like this.
2. FGS was previously DX-only, now some of the energy is focused on UrT, so don't blame the maps, blame yourselves. You're trying to have your cake and eat it. Very few members actually regularly play Deus Ex, yet you are consulting these people on Altfire server, which by their own admission, they have given up on already and gone to another game.
3. Same issue as far as popularizing Altfire, with far less administration than there was before, players will mess the server.
4. By removing lams, you've removed the nukes too.

I'd consider the fact that when altfire was popular, we didn't have ANY small maps. It's only since Prodigy and Abandoned and Twinz that a new breed of player arose. It's true, they brought players, but also many left, Axis, Majestic, Kuch, Ani, Tidus etc... as many players actually left, skilled Altfire players lost interest in Altfire. Krisz I don't see how you could be this stubborn about small maps, they just don't work for altfire in the long run. IF the maps worked perfectly, had no errors and then maybe, then maybe you would have an argument, but as long as these small maps contain far more errors than maps like Proteus, I don't see the point of what you are doing. Same Rakonda, you know that map needs fixing, the vac removed from the spawns, but why haven't you? (just a rhetorical question, not an attack)

Altfire maps imo, need to give players time to spawn, look around. On Snow, I killed 3 players with nukedeath within 4 seconds.
The whole point of Wunderland in 2005 was CHILL, it was somewhere away from the madness of other servers, where people could see custom work at their leisure. As a result of your policy against this, ZXC has superceded you as the new "FGS". If you make Wunderland too frantic with maps like Snow and Twinz, you'll destroy it forever. The archetypal Altfire map would be a future city, where I spawn, the music is haunting, there is a few seconds of exploration (i.e. medium sized map) and then flying and combat. If I wasn't the spanner in your works, Altfire would be like Iceworld, just spawnkilling.

There's only 2 maps that people do not argue about. Scoutz and EnemyAtTheGates. They both have two things in common, which Twinz, Call of Duty, Snow, Area 51, Pacman, Helibase etc do not have.

Go figure. Protected Spawns and central cover, even if flying. DXMP_Frequency is another example. DXMP_CMD is another.
Also, one more consideration. Embedding tnag extra weps. You know what effect that has on players. Perhaps in future, altfire maps should not contain Bio in spawnrooms.

Also Cathedral Altfire Test, it can be removed and the proper Cathedral put there in place. It was a test of that exact thing, bio not in spawnrooms.

Finally bear in mind that SG maps and new SG maps were a big factor in server popularity too. Noodz decided to remove one, simply for a texture error, but imo that didn't help you much either. ZXC are hosting the right version of Day After and also Abydos, the spawns are wrong, my fault, but people need to spawn on Abydos as well as Earth or the map doesn't make sense.
Also I should have plenty of new SG maps soon. Nexus, Silo, Moonbase, Skyline and if I can, some small ones.

Also, DJ's weps and WP bombers, seems crazy not to have them on all the SG maps now, show the world something fresh.

[chin.democ.]

This thread is the cut list and so I need opinions about taking off maps, I've only added two maps so far, Silly Fortress and my Snow map, Snow_4 doesn't work well in Altfire so it will be taken off, however the reason I first put it there was so to show people a fresh map, so it can stay for a little while at least I think, Silly Fortress may suffer the same fate but at least there's new stuff on the server and it may encourage people to make maps if they know their work could be hosted on Altfire, even if at least temporary.

I've replaced Cathedral altfire test with the standard Catherdal.

[ShadowRunner]

Good stuff.

Obviously it's your baby now, we expect something different, just I'm convinced that small maps will create a spawnkilling server, unless you can get 5 clan members on there at the necessary times to set the tone and style of play. Also, having discussed these things forever, surely Altfighter needs updating?

I tried with Katarzyna and the wallcampers, when players were complaining a lot, but there are persistent offenders who've never seen the "right" way.

If it is a Cutlist, then I would think about removing Call of Duty. It's very small and turrets dominate.

Any others that you don't cut, I'll give you an update asap. Some stuff will take 2 mins, like making buildings solid in Smuggler.

[chin.democ.]

Altfighter Is a nade fest you're right, it's been hosted now for three months so it's had a fair crack of the whip, I think maybe it should go, but I'd like to hear from 666 if possible as he hasn't posted recently to my knowledge. Call of Duty is a decent map, perhaps it can be taken off at your request and if you fancy editing it at a later date it can be put back on.

Basically the vision is to have a server full of quality maps as well as new maps every so often to set it apart from the other servers. [FGS] has many talented people the servers should reflect that, we are the oldest current clan by a mile and we should be a clan people really look up to, I'd like to see a few more [FGS] tagged players in the server for instance.

[~[FGS]SaSQuATcH~]

Krisz I don't see how you could be this stubborn about small maps, they just don't work for altfire in the long run. IF the maps worked perfectly, had no errors and then maybe, then maybe you would have an argument, but as long as these small maps contain far more errors than maps like Proteus, I don't see the point of what you are doing.

I'm not stubborn about small maps, in fact I don't like Pacman and Abandoned either, all I know is that they bring players. It would be very easy to modify mapvote a bit so it won't allow voting the same map without playing like 3 other maps first. Guess what you get: Players who prefer small maps, yet play the big ones. I don't know how much time a round takes on altfire at the moment but I know people start to leave when they see a 30 minutes countdown on a map they don't like. Short games might make them stay. The server also needs a new name maybe, something that will bring them players back, otherwise they'll never find out about how the system changed.

There's only 2 maps that people do not argue about. Scoutz and EnemyAtTheGates. They both have two things in common, which Twinz, Call of Duty, Snow, Area 51, Pacman, Helibase etc do not have. Go figure. Protected Spawns and central cover, even if flying. DXMP_Frequency is another example. DXMP_CMD is another.
Also, one more consideration. Embedding tnag extra weps. You know what effect that has on players. Perhaps in future, altfire maps should not contain Bio in spawnrooms.

Twinz beta has protected spawns, the faulty exit on second and third tower is not my fault, they're controled by a switch button that was previously removed from the entire server (like repairbots, biocells etc), I have no idea why. The map itself is unfinished but very much playable and it was modified to meet your altfire standards. Even prodigy is unfinished, yet people love it, I love it.

[chin.democ.]

Yes I would like the Altfire server to be renamed Altfire 2011 or similar once we have chosen which new maps to put on, also I wanted to advertise a semi-relaunch of the server around the forums for some publicity (show map pictures, maybe some upcoming pics too i.e. new DXSG stuff!)

Also we should have a discussion about possibly bringing back some of the more explosive weapons - lams, sclaws, super rockets all that stuff. Just having people seeing this conversation has brought a few decent games in Altfire recently.

About the mapvote something like that Chris would be great.

[ShadowRunner]

can u see the need for 2 servers...
alot of players asking for nukes.

sorry if my comments offend, not my standards btw. Noodz is far more stringent about releases.

I just passed by to mention that DXMP_Cathedral probably should be renamed, since everyone got version mismatch.

Oh and maybe Snow would work well in a server with maps like Twinz and Prodigy, maybe an altfire version/more cover at spawns, but it was a lot of fun today.